Interview with Keefe Lee VP of Customer Experience at Jackman
In this Clubhouse interview I spoke with Keefe Lee, VP of customer experience at Jackman. Keefe works with retailers and brands to reinvent their experiences with customers both online and offline, in the store. Transcript of the conversation is below.
You can connect with Keefe on LinkedIn.
Transcript:
Welcome to the retail tech podcast. My name is Darius Vasefi, the host. And this is where I speak with leaders and entrepreneurs involved in all aspects of retail and e commerce. This interview is being recorded, and will be published on retail type podcasts and other channels that we have in about a week. Today, I'm speaking with Keefe Lee, Vice President of customer experience at a company called Jackman and they work with retailers and brands to help them build successful online presences. Let's start from quick background of yourself how you got to be doing what you're doing today. And then talk more about what how Jacqueline helps customers
Keefe 0:46 While I was in school, this was kind of during the time when the .com boom was happening. I started picking up side jobs and creating websites on the side. And you know, use that as a way to sort of pay my way and sort of fund my sort of school school I graduated, got a real job in advertising, sort of left behind what I thought was a bit of a hobby. But as I started working in advertising, what I started realizing is that a lot of the things that I was doing in my part time life, which involves you know, websites, and you know, all this digital stuff that we call it today, started creeping into the conversations of advertising. And that kind of formed kind of, you know, what my passion became, which is, you know, how do we look at things like marketing? How does, how do brands look at, you know, technologies in digital and really be able to leverage them for their gains. And that kind of was the beginning of my path. my career, I've sat in roles in account management, outside on roles and project management. And then recently, kind of gravitated more to the strategy side of things, and kind of help, you know, build a lot of thinking around, you know, how to properly plan and orchestrate, you know, digital transformation. As of late, one of the things I started seeing is that the conversation around digital has grown so far beyond it being its own channel and your platform. So what we've done is kind of pivoted my career a little bit to look just immediately outside of just digital on its own and starting to think about where digital can also impact other places, which kind of led me to a customer experience, design sort of thought. And really, the thinking there is, you know, when a brand starts thinking about the experiences or the engagements they need to create, they really do need to have that type orchestration of how all these things come to life. And I think we're my career path has kind of taken me is, if you think about that orchestration, you know, digital on its own is a very important channel. Within that, no, I think we can all acknowledge that. But the thing that's really come to light is the connective tissue, or the lines between boxes, as I call them, are also enabled by you know, proper digital platforms and technology and data and all these things that we talked about within digital, which gives me far more permission to have conversations about you know, what a retail strategy could be, because those two things are sort of tightly intertwined. And I think what we're finding Jackman is by leaning into CX, we can actually help unlock that orchestration a lot better, have a better Avenue and way to bring digital into the conversation, and then ultimately free up a lot of those things that the customer will ultimately see. So that's been a bit of my trajectory. You know, I've worked in industries, you know, mainly through marketing or advertising, but, you know, all the way from retail to automotive to CPG, and sorts of industries like that.
Darius 3:45 Okay, great. So, Jacqueline, is, where is the company base?
Keefe 3:52 We are Toronto based. But we do you know, our scope is actually North American wide. The majority of our client base is actually in the US.
Darius 4:03 Okay, and do you focus on, you know, the type of customers that you mentioned, is that retailers brands direct to consumer? CPG?
Keefe 4:15 Yeah, we do a little bit of all that areas, I'd say, the majority of our notoriety, if you will, is has been in retail, we've worked on a lot of major retail brands, and a lot of the legacy of a company is there. But what we're, you know, quickly finding out is a lot of the challenges that retailers face, you know, have direct application to CPG and, you know, even b2b businesses. So we are starting to flex into other verticals, enter industries. Right now, we do have a big focus on, you know, food retail, and, you know, obviously things like PPC are very, very top of mind for us right now.
Darius 4:56 Right, yeah, that's good. We'll get into some of those sets. Because my interest is also heavily on the retail side. So now let's, let's go, I guess a little bit higher upper level, and just talk about what is customer experience? I mean, that's it. That's a pretty, I guess, all encompassing phrase, correct?
Keefe 5:22 Yeah, and, and I'm glad you bring that up too, there is because I do find that it is one of those terms like digital, you know, depending on who you are, you might have a different viewpoint into it. And Jacqueline, we do have a very specific belief about what sex is and what it can unlock. You know, a Jackman, at the core of our work, we always put a human insight as the lens of our thinking. So whenever we help companies make change, it's it's always indirect service of what the customer really needs, not necessarily what the organization wants. And I know that, that sounds obvious. But when I think about CX, it's really then thinking about, you know, all those things I mentioned, you know, like, you know, things like brand packaging, retail, digital communications, culture, transformation, all those things, it's really taking all those things and pushing it through the lens of what the customer needs truly are. And by shifting the focus from being outside, from inside out to outside in, you start, you know, getting a truer sense of what you really need to accomplish, and you know, better able to meet the demands of what the customer wants. So CX, for us really is a planning methodology that puts customer needs at the core of the planning thought, and then through channel orchestration and planning and goal setting, then we can properly understand the role of each of their channels, the tactics that then live within, so that there is this seamlessness and continuity to how all these things fit together.
Darius 6:54 Okay. And that's basically so there are, when I look at the website, there are a few different areas, for example, research and insights. I mean, that that really starts from research, correct?
Keefe 7:10 Yeah, correct. And, you know, like I said, the majority of our engagements, we, we usually start with not only research provided to us by our partners, but we go right in and actually create our own first party research. And although we do you use that at the beginning of the process to define, you know, our hypothesis, you know, the big Northstar that we're going to build our thinking around, we're starting to find now is that that research can't stop. Because, you know, as you start putting tactics or initiatives in the marketplace, and to be truly customer centric, you're going to start getting that feedback from customers. And that feedback is important, because it's going to tell you where you need to bend and shift. And one of the things that we were really good at is really focusing on getting change to happen quickly. And for that to happen, you really need to think about change in a very agile and incremental way. So as you start putting things in market, you know, you start looking at things from a smaller perspective, getting it out there gauging the response of customers, and then using that feedback to continue to evolve and build, ultimately, to where you want to go. And, you know, when we start dissecting a lot of the big brands that everyone talks about, that has had great CX, today, you can almost draw a line back to when they started some of this testing and learning as we would call it, that helped them sort of evolve that thought to get to where it needs to go today. So that for us has been a bit of an unmarked, and how to approach the X.
Darius 8:43 Okay, so you start with research, then what's the next step in the flow of like a typical engagement with the customer?
Keefe 8:56 Yeah, so in I mean, assuming with our partners, right there is, so what we would do is we would go through the research, and based on the findings, what we would do is really get to understand who they are trying to target as a customer case. And then using that understanding to really define what makes your business unique and different. You know, we call that our, our lens or a category of one. And that becomes, you know, the crux of the change. And then through that we you know, we define things like you know, brand positioning, you know, what are the needs states of the people that we're trying to target and the places that we think they need to play, which then becomes a great foundation for us then to think about customer experience design. And then what we then do is then go through and understand, you know, from a journey perspective, you know, how does a customer go through your brand's experience, and then using that to uncover not only pain points, but opportunity areas, which then become you know, the, you know, the Do come like I guess briefs and then thinking about how each one of those channels and or touch points could come to life.
Darius 10:07 Okay. So there's a lot of work that's done before you actually even start putting the proverbial pen to paper. Correct? As far as I think,
Keefe 10:20 yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a great sort of final question, right, because one of the things that, you know, when you think about big digital platforms, or, you know, an analog world, you know, building a store design, for example, those are big and costly investments. So, really, before you get off and start those things, you really need to make sure you have not only the immediate plan, right, but also understand the vision or the horizon, as we would say, you know, of where those things are going. And doing that due diligence, doing the legwork, defining the strategy not only helps provide that focus, but also allows us to think further ahead into the future. So that the investments we can make early on, ultimately pay off.
Darius 11:06 Okay, yeah. I mean, as I'm, I'm a founder, mostly myself, and I know founders and executives always are impatient, trying to jump into design. And so I wanted to bring that up. But I have to stop myself a lot of times, we've actually built tools just to control me. So I don't run through some of the things that the planning part and the research that has to be done before you actually start building anything.
Keefe 11:40 Yeah, there is a safe place, we can all confess our sins here. But I, you know, I think it's a great point. And it's something we run into, because there is a bit of a conflict around, getting the plan, right, and creating efficacy and all these things at the same time of showing that change to a customer. And, you know, if you think about where we came, within the last 12 months of our year, change has been survival for a lot of businesses, and doing it quickly is even more important, right? So we do try to counterbalance that. And I think, you know, again, just going back to what I said before, our testing learning methodology allows us to be intentional about some of those immediate steps, so we can get change out in the market quickly. But not do it in a way that creates more risk we were doing in a way that is intentional, that allows us to sustain that change over time. So what we then do is kind of satisfied both things like we're doing it with a methodology and clear intention in mind, but because they're smaller, more nimble, and reactive type initiatives, we can get them into the market very, very quickly.
Darius 12:48 Right. And of course, this is this is also different between a brand new project versus an existing one, right?
Keefe 12:59 Yeah, that's right. And when we mean reinvention, typically the brands and organizations we work on are not new, they are ones that have, you know, you know, existing initiatives and programs and platforms in place. And, you know, having worked on both sides of that equation, I do find it's much harder to work with brands that, you know, you know, to some extent, have to undo a lot of the problems before they can redo them, you know, and if we connect that to something like, you know, a digital platform, for example, the cost of standing up a new platform is remarkably less than it is to read platform or D platform, someone before you be platform that might, you know, it almost becomes an exponential cause to undo something first. So there is a very important balance, we have to strike with a lot of the brands we work on, because they're already, you know, in market, their existing customer bases and all those things. So, you know, all of those things also get factored in our planning and our rollout strategies. Right.
Darius 14:05 Yeah. I mean, that's also so I just wanted to make that distinction, the amount of planning the research, and the way that you go through and you make any kind of a test that tests or changes is completely different between a brand new project, for example, a customer that's just wants to build something new versus an existing one. That's, like you said, I think there's a lot of work that goes into an existing project just to even get alignment of where to look or there's so many people involved. So,
Keefe 14:45 it's a it's a great point, and even subtly, you know, I think one of the things I run into most with a cx mindset is, you know, often our biggest barrier is just, you know, organizational culture, right, because, you know, a lot other departments in organizations or departments within organizations have created silos for themselves. And to truly free up change, you really do need to break some of those walls down. Which is why that culture change for us is such a critical part of our process.
Darius 15:15 Right. And that's a lot easier said than done.
Keefe 15:20 It's definitely the hardest part of our work area. So you know, that right there,
Darius 15:23 I've had my own experiences. And I mean, everybody has their own point. I mean, of course, you know, and they're trying to, you know, help the company, of course, but it just, it takes a lot more work. People. Yeah. So now, what about performance? Do you get into performance, like analytics and performance with customers? When something goes wrong on, you know, maybe just for the project? And then also on the long term?
Keefe 15:56 Yeah, of course we do, right there is because like, at the end of the day, that's, that's how we can show our value to some extent, what we do is we do try to balance, you know, it's an easy trap to fall into to look at the revenue as an indicator of success or failure. Right. So what we also try to do is understand, you know, deeper engagements, you know, what I would call kind of mid funnel things like, you know, engagement, or efficacy, or advocacy, or all these other factors that are important from an experience perspective. And, you know, the reason why, and then we're going all the way back up, you know, like, you know, are we impacting, you know, perception change, are we impacting users change and all these things. The reason why we want to make sure performance for us needs to be full spectrum is, you know, having worked through e commerce is a big part of my career. You know, and I think you see this a lot today with a lot of ecommerce, ecommerce providers that are sort of, you know, managing the impacts of COVID, you can quickly create tactics to get revenue, you know, you do things like discounting, you do things like, you know, buy one, get one or, you know, let's bundle some things together, you'll see some immediate left from a sales perspective. But the bigger question we would ask is, you know, what, ultimately is that doing for your customer experience in your brand, and you know, sort of different ways that person going to come back a second time. And I think that's why it's important to look at all the other factors beyond the knee hard KPIs. And going back to what I said before, like, our research methodology is completely inter twined, with our cx methodology, so that, you know, as we think about how experiences evolve over time, that feedback loop really is those are those performance indicators. And they become very important nuggets of insight that we use to evolve a business's strategy over time.
Darius 17:52 Great. So just to reset the room, I am speaking with Keith Lee, a VP of customer experience at jack man, and this room is being recorded. In about 10 minutes, I'll open it up to questions. If anybody has a question, please raise your hand. And we'll, we'll bring you up and you can ask. I keep questions yourself. So Keith, let's talk about some of the companies that you have recently worked with retailers. What would be a good project to talk about?
Keefe 18:28 Yeah, I mean, obviously, there's quite a bit of proprietary thinking that, you know, I just need to protect slightly, we do have some case studies on our website. So everyone, curious, please head to Jacqueline reinvents.com. But you know, happy to talk about a few that are close to me anyways. So one of the brands I've been working on closely is staples retail, in the US. And the big pivot, you know, obviously, when you think about a stationary retailer, you know, it's very quick to jump right into that transactional mindset. And for them, you know, the risk is that, you know, you look at places like Amazon, and, and all these places that are doing, you know, same day delivery, it becomes a challenging battleground for them to compete on some of those levels. Right. So, the thought there is that, you know, there's such an opportunity for a business like staples to stand for so much more because of the base that they're trying to target and what they can offer that base. So, you know, we did quite a lot of thinking and research for them and actually found that there was a very specific mindset that the the staples base, all shared, and it's really this mindset of achievement. And a lot of the people that, you know, go to staples are people that you know, are entrepreneurs that are small businesses, you know, some case there are teachers, but no, in many ways have this sort of passion to sort of figured out how to do or create something for them. sells. And that's a very important mindset when you're thinking about building a customer experience. And on top of that, the other thing that we've been building is, we truly believe as, like, it's almost as like a core tenant of experience that customer, customer, customer, customer interaction is so critical in creating authenticity, and trust, and, and all these things that are important to brands. So a lot of the work we've been doing with them is really kind of shifting the way they've been looking at their business from being a sort of, you know, traditional retailer, whether, you know, main purpose is to transact product and move it off the shelves quickly to becoming more of a provider and enabler for the community that they truly support. So some of the things we've done for their ecosystem is, you know, taking a look at a few of the pilot stores and creating them to be more like collaborative work environments, so that, you know, some of these, like, the people with this achiever mindset, can come in and, you know, connect with other people that are in a similar place, and, you know, share thinking, share belief, have discussions, learn from each other, and use that, and use, you know, the physical space as a form to be able to do all those things, you know, and all the products that they sell, and all the services they have become in support of all the work that they're ultimately going to do that's been unlocked by the community that exists. And, you know, we started this path with them, pre COVID. But during when COVID hit, this became even more real, because, you know, and I'm sure you get this kind of, from the finders mindset, a lot of these achievers kind of went into survival mode, and it became even more critical for them to connect with people, and unlock all the the value and opportunities that come with that. So, you know, through the work, and a lot of this is in market, which is why it's, it's it's, it's easy to talk to a lot of this work has, you know, been, you know, there are stores that have been created with this mindset, we're helping them work on a digital platform that's specific to that community engagement and how to draw people together and how we can allow them to create content and share and, and trade skills and so forth. So it's been a very good ride, we have a long way to go with them still. But yeah, definitely go to the website and check out there's a lot more detail around the case study there, if anyone's curious.
Darius 22:25 That's a good, good, actually, example, of working with the local stores. I mean, you know, we all know the story of we work, of course, and probably the hundreds and 1000s of other collaborative co working spaces, and I always was thinking, why aren't staples and other companies like that are already had that relationship with entrepreneurs doing this? They have these massive stores? Most of it is can I mean, they can all be a lot more compact and nicer. So why aren't doing that? So I'm really glad to hear that you're actually doing that some kind of pilots with them? If that's what I'm understanding correctly.
Keefe 23:13 Yeah, I think you got a bang on ideas. And I think, like I say, we are in early days. And, you know, there's still quite a bit of work and thinking that we still need to realize with them, and it's gonna get bigger, I mean, community for us, is far beyond just the conversations that happen between people, but also the support system and the platforms that need to be created to enable all those things. And, you know, these are things that are on top of mind for us right now.
Darius 23:39 Okay, well, I'm, I'm happy to hear that staples is thinking about that. And I hope that they move fast. And they test. You know, I mean, we do too. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is this is right now, for a lot of retailers, change is not an option anymore. It's a life and death situation. And I know people understand that they talk about it, but really, I mean, in reality, customers are going to other people, providers every day, every day, right? You're losing customers, maybe you know, not millions every day, but every day you're losing customers. And this is like what do you have like a ship that has leaks? And that's right, ultimately, it'll, you know, you you'll drown if you don't stop to, you know, start to you know, plug these leaks. So how do you how do you actually get that? So this is like really interesting for me. I mean, even myself working with retailers and what what are some of the things that retailers really need to do to make change happen faster, organizationally?
Keefe 24:58 Yeah, it's, it's again, a great question and you know, again, one of the hardest parts of our work. To truly make change, you've got a, what I find is you got to break down the silos, like I said before, right? And I'll give you a real life example. So, again, when you think about, you know, something like a digital platform, let's say e commerce, for example, you know, historically, that has been the role of a CTO or CIO, right. And if you think about what his KPIs would be things like, you know, efficiency, uptime, and so forth, and then kind of tangent, you kind of have this, you know, cmo that's also thinking about, well, how do I sell a product and on and on and on, and their KPIs are our revenue and, you know, attachment and all these things. Where I find that the biggest blocker to change is that the two aren't necessarily talking. And when you think about something like an e commerce, it really, in commerce platform, there really is a shared mandate that you need to have. And because of that, you can't have varying cultures, opinions, or even KPIs for that matter. So I find that the best place to really capital change is sort of the governance or the piece that kind of sits above it. And really clearly establishing what you know, the goalposts are, and what everyone needs to be working to. And as a way, then to be articulate what the goals for each one of those silos could be, so that not only are they working in concert, what you also need to do then is to create that culture where there is, you know, both of these leaders at the table constantly talking about, you know, what that change is and how big it can become, right? Because I think even you, like I've seen, I'm sure you've seen in your past, like when you give, you know, marketing, the conversate, versus you give the CTO the ecommerce website, you can see instantly that the two experiences will be dramatically different, where at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is whether or not you've created the right experience for your customer base. Right.
Darius 27:05 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's also the really, I think when it gets to the executive level of the company, especially when they're their public companies, they have so many other factors that they have to juggle. So but you know, I actually had a an interview with Peter Coleman, which is a consultant, also and an author, he has a book called Goliath Strikes Back, talking specifically about how, for example, Best Buy changed, when the ship was actually going down about maybe seven or eight years ago, and what kinds of things, so it is possible to change, but it has to come from really heavy emphasis and support from the top executive levels.
Keefe 28:02 Yeah, and, you know, I think, you know, the culture piece is really important for us. But, you know, even if you think of it, you know, in a more tactical or practical way, and the next level down, you know, you also need to think about things like, you know, do you have a strategy for innovation, because, you know, change is something that can't happen overnight, you can plan for it. But change is something that needs to be constant and evolve over time. So, by having a clear roadmap of, you know, again, you know, where your technology needs to go, or, you know, what, what, what is the horizon are that the endpoint that we're working to getting everyone aligned to the future, but then also orchestrating the path to get back to today. That's also been a very important tool for us too. Because, you know, like, again, I keep bringing it back to sort of e commerce as an example. It's very hard to replatform and launch a new sort of, you know, technology stack to deliver, you know, DTC in the right way. And that's something that can't happen overnight. So you need to be sure that everyone is aligned to all the different incremental steps that need to happen along the way, and what their part is to making sure that those things happen properly. Right.
Darius 29:18 Yeah, so I was trying to think about how to quantify the challenges of, for example, every platforming or redesign of an existing project. And I was thinking, like, what is the percentage of the people work, then the technology and design work? And it's almost seems like it's 80% or more people work. Technology is the easy part, right?
Keefe 29:52 Yeah, I don't totally and maybe the other way to look at that that equation is if you don't invest more The 80% to begin with, you have to pay that off an exponential in the 20%. Right, like getting the alignment, getting the culture in place. Getting that, you know, so to speak, by and early on, frees up the ability to get to that 20% in a very precise and accurate way versus having to do it at every single incremental sort of step, which, you know, not only is time consuming and costly, but, you know, like, you know, I'm sure you've, you've felt that having gone through certain things like it's exhausting, and it erodes your culture. Right.
Darius 30:33 Yeah, yeah, that's a great point, you know, as, as consultants, and one of the and myself as being, you know, having been a consultant before, but one of the, the hardest part of the work for me was that when I was making a recommendation, and it just was not being implemented or fast enough, and I just saw the business software. And of course, I can't make that decision, I can just make a recommendation. But that's like, that's really like the psychological part of being a consultant.
Keefe 31:14 Yeah, no, it is true. And I see that too. You know, and I think our approach to that is, you know, what we don't want to be is, you know, I think the stigma with traditional consulting, where you go in, and you drop a strategy on a desk, and you kind of disappear, right? Like, we want to be involved in a part of it not, and also help bring some of these things to life. But I think a lot of our a lot of our approach involves bringing people into the conversation, having them own their part of it. So by the time that, you know, that document, as you would call it, that strategy gets crafted, there's no separation between who owns it is something that's been created together. And I think, if you can successfully do that, what you'll find is like, there's a lot more onus in terms of ownership and, you know, buy in, and people just lean in and make it happen. And that's where we see a lot of that culture piece and the momentum that comes from that.
Darius 32:14 Yeah, that's a great point. Okay, so I'm going to, if anybody has questions, please raise your hand. Otherwise, we'll continue I have a million questions. For Keith. So what's the this is a very simple question. I know you're gonna think about that. But then laugh maybe. But what's the future of retail?
Keefe 32:41 Yeah, good question. You know, I think the easy answer is I kind of wish I do because then we could figure it out a lot faster for our, our partners. But you know, the way we look at it is, you know, like I said, I think we have to, we have to be following along with what customers needs are, and what's kind of showing up to us. And, you know, one of the things you know, we've done a lot of research, over the time around, you know, where innovation and technology is going, and so forth. And what we're seeing today, and I'll give you like a real life example, we were at CES, this year, it was a virtual and digital conference, rather than a physical one. And in the past, when I've been at CES conferences, they talk about technology as if it's 10 years away, right? Like, you know, here's something we're gonna do, you're not going to buy it today, but just, you know, dream about it, and maybe five years, you'll see it come to life. I think for me, this year was a little different, because a lot of the technology they talked about, was really right in front of us, not only, like something that could be implemented tomorrow, per se, but things that are actually a market that are actually happening now. And, you know, I think to answer your question about where I think, you know, retail is going like, I, I have a bias, you know, I look at where all these trends and trends and technology are going and what customers are telling that they want to adopt and embrace. Because, you know, I think that the view or the way into retail is actually through how customers interact with things like technology and these types of experiences that are showing up in CES. So I wouldn't say it's like, you know, a clear playbook for us. But what CES does tell us is, you know, not what you should build, but what customers are going to expect from your retail environments. And that's a very important and powerful insight for us.
Darius 34:44 Yes, that's a great point. You know, it customers consumers are really dry driving the change, right?
Keefe 34:53 That's correct. And I think they're telling us why the adoption what's what what matters to them. And, you know, like, the reason why cx works and why we have so much passion behind it is that's the intention is we're building to what they're actually telling us they need and want. And you can't ignore, you know, you know, like the TIC tocs of the world, you know, where our technology is going and all these things because, you know, if brands don't think about how to engage with them, you know, even at the retail level that, you know, like, the honest truth is someone else will. And that's what's going to matter for your customer base.
Darius 35:31 Right. Well, we have Mike joining us on the stage.
Mike 35:39 how are you? Great interview. question though, as technologists, we've been pretty bad at selling through the notion of experience, from a content perspective, over things that are very sort of practical and and understandable by merchants. So for instance, e commerce and community are relatively easier to sell in, then brand experience. I'm interested because looking at what's going on, certainly in COVID, you know, we think, oh, people are going to start to abandon retail spaces, they're not going to come in, they're going to want to stay away that e commerce is somehow the bomb that the merchants will understand to a greater extent. But the data seems to suggest that people are dying to get out of their houses, and get back to retail establishments or other kinds of establishments to interact with each other and interact with product. So I'm wondering what Keith thinks from a technology perspective, how technology will evolve, to meet that challenge, and to more effectively sell in brand experience from a parody perspective, because to his point at the beginning, CX is kind of all encompassing, whereas e commerce is a channel community is a channel within the context of within the context of digital, but how is digital and technology going to bridge the gap between what we've always expected? Because we don't know how long measures are going to be in place in retail establishments throughout North America and the world? How is technology going to be employed in a way, either through handheld, gestural, whatever it happens to be within the context of those retail establishments to deliver material brand messaging and material storytelling, that will get people to be more excited about the brand and more apt to engage with some level of conversion?
Keefe 37:39 Yeah, it's a great question, Mike. And it's one of the things that I think kind of pushed me to think about cx over looking at a channel like digital. You know, and don't get me wrong, there's, there's a lot of urgency in getting things like e commerce, right. I think the big unlock really is, we have to stop thinking about your digital platforms as just an ecommerce experience, and more as an unlock of how to connect all your experiences together. Right. So you know, to give a real life example. One of the big trends that is top of mind for me coming out of CES this year, is really the introduction of 5g technology around the world. And really what that's going to lock are some obvious things like you know, more bandwidth, less latency, more devices connected at once and all these things, which I think on the surface is great. We all sort of consider that. But why I think it's important why I think it answers your question, Mike is what it will unlock for us is more power in the hand of the people, right? Like the devices now are going to have way more processing power, way more ability to impact what's happening in the physical space. So I think the misnomer is that think of the e commerce experience as the things you go home to do when you're not at the store. I think the bigger thought is how does your DTC experience become an enabler and unlock have a far bigger experience that then seeps its way into your e commerce site, and, or your, your physical store? So like a really like basic example of that, you know, how to leverage something like, you know, VR and AR technology? You know, like, I'm a big fan of Shopify, Shopify has quite a bit of added tools to allow AR to exist on a product page level, which I think is fantastic. To me, where I think 5g takes us is that then when you're in store, like you can use my GE as a way to unlock that physical experience, but then still keeping you connected to what that digital platform is, so that you have that follow up engagement and or experience when you leave the store. So I think the misnomer is thinking about it in parity versus thinking of it as a singular experience.